I've been listening to a sermon that our friend Mike gave at church back in July. It was about how Mary of Bethany modeled discipleship. (July 22 at this site: http://www.lwf4sq.com/LWF/resources/sermons.htm ) I am deeply frustrated listening to this. I can't really figure out what I'm supposed to hang on to in it. I can hear that I'm supposed to be passionately, obsessively focused on Christ. Yet, I'm not. The only response I have to this is to feel guilty and inferior because I'm unmoved. Sometimes I think I'm just going to hell...except I don' t think I believe in hell (anhiliationist). I don't trust this message. I can hear the truth in it—that we must love God with all our heart, soul, mind, strength. And I recall the times of my life when sacrifice was easy in pursuit of God. I have these two voices speaking in my head. The female voice is the voice of the last charismatic church we were part of. It beckons me to be engage my soul in God, drinking in who he is with every bit of my being. To be overwhelmed and carried away. The male voice, is that of my husband who says that truth makes us free and we must discover it and walk in it. It assures me that what God is and wants is not vague and slippery, and that the grand plan is more than making me feel good. It's logical, ordered and specific. And definitely missing something. Here is some of what the two voices say:
SHE says: The way to the successful Christian life: cultivate an experiential relationship with God that makes you aware of God's glory, holiness, love and power. Meditate on it, feel the rush of emotions that come through singing about it and taking in Christian art. This awareness will make you better able to hear God's voice and put you in touch with the power of God to live out his will. You'll feel exhilerated, so you'll know its working. You will want to do the right thing. You should concern yourself with trying to be as deeply engrossed in God as you can. You need to do things that make you feel like thinking about God and listening to him. The successful Christian life is defined by a mystical quality of life. God's best disciples are the ones that are passionate. The emotional certainty that is faith, and the passion that is love are what God requires.
HE says: The way to the successful Christian life is to find out what is true, which will make you truly free to walk with God. The role of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth, not all feelings. So we should read the Bible searching for his essentials, and embrace them. These include a proper understanding of why Jesus came, the impact of his resurrection, the purpose of the spirit and a firm grasp of the hope that inspired the Apostles—to start with. Singing songs that make us feel things that aren't true will hurt us in this process. Feelings follow thoughts and must always be subject to what is true. They are not useful for serving God, but are a nice by product, when they happen. God isn't disappointed when we don't feel much. Love is not so much an emotion, but the laying down of self, which we will rarely feel like doing—take Jesus for example. He didn't feel like going to the cross, but he did, out of obedience to the Father and for the reward waiting for him. Faith and Love are what God requires, and neither are emotions. Faith is walking as though what is true IS true, and love is the denial of self for the best good of another.
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Sorry. Listen to the other one's I preached first. They will provide a better foundation... Go back to April/May. The sermons on Cultivating a life in the Spirit. Old Man vs. New Man(3/04/07) , and Incarnate vs. Indwelling (3/11/07). Follow the path that way then get to the Mary and Discipleship. They kind of set a foundation for themselves... not that I have all the answers or anything :/ Remember I'm weak too! :)
PS. Going back to your "he said, she said"... I think there is some common ground place between them and that each one should fuel the other in some odd sense.
PSS. I haven't started my blog yet... haven't had time to design it the way I want.. hehe... so email me if you feel like it. mike@lwf4sq.com
Mike, this is obviously a process and I hope it is coming through that I am trying to make sense and balance of the two voices, because I do believe that they inform each other. I would have like to listen to more, but I get throttled by my ISP if I stream more than one sermon a day! :-) I will go back and listen to those others. I am frustrated at this point because being enthralled with God seems like a beautiful thought--even a biblical one--yet it seems as impossible as everything else. I'm not wired that way? And there is something I cannot put my finger on that is shifted from center in both the squishy voice and the cut and dried voice. Which is why I'm chewing, and listening.
Feelings are great... but I don't trust them. What if they change or fade away? Feelings are me and I'm usually the problem. Facts are not so mutable. Facts (real facts from the mouth of God) simply are... like gravity they are difficult to argue with. They just sit there while your feelings wash around them. They don't care how you feel about them, they aren't moved by the limits of your perception or comprehension. They are more trustworthy as objects to anchor to. Faith connects facts and feelings for me. Facts simply are, feelings ebb and flow... faith in the facts gives feeling freedom. It doesn't have to anchor anything, it can ebb and flow as it was always meant too.
C.
Chuck, feelings are you. I get that, but even Jesus wept with Mary at the garden. What if your mind, will and emotions were lead by God's Spirit instead of your own. Your feelings are still yours, but influenced by God's Spirit.
I think of it this way... if I get mad at my wife, I can allow the Holy Spirit to influence my emotions to change the way I feel from anger to humility. (Or whatever way the Spirit is leading me to be with my wife...) However he wants me to feel in that situation, if I let him, he can lead me to that... Reference, "Old man vs. New man" sermon for deeper thoughts on that one.... I dunnno! Still human, still seeking...
Mike, if you are angry at your wife, you are experiencing the result of a thought. "She should/should not do xyz" or whatever. It's an idea that your emotions are following. Your feelings are not sins, but resulting actions may be. If you want to go to the core of what is causing bad behavior, don't just go to the feeling, go to the thought and have a talk with it. Have a talk with God about it. Is it true? Is it the whole truth? Is there something more eternal that would be more useful to consider? An eternal something that would lead your thoughts, emotions and actions to righteousness? If the Holy Spirit is to lastingly change our emotions (which is a strange goal to consider), then it must start by "taking every thought captive to Christ."
But anger is not a feeling. its an emotion. AND in Matthew 5:21-23
" You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ' You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
NASU
Jesus said that anger made you guilty. So then, if I am angry with my wife... regardless of the reason.. I am sinning. It doesn't matter what I do with that anger... the anger itself is sinful.
Which is why I need the Spirit to influence my emotions and lead to righteous emotions, taking anger and leading it to love. Like you said, dialogging with the Spirit, and letting him lead me to the right emotion, action, etc.
Mike, is it the job of the Spirit to over ride the natural consequences of my choices? I have a choice about what I think and believe--whether I embrace what God says or not, which is where my feelings come from. Jesus said that the work of the Father is to believe, not to feel. Jesus did not go to the cross because he was overwhelmed with feelings of love. He didn't feel like going at all. (Luke 22:42, John 12:27) But he submitted to the will of his father and was obedient even to death. The Spirit did not influence his emotions so that he felt like being beaten, humiliated and dying. Jesus turned his eyes to the truth--that there was joy and glory down this road--and believed it, and against his emotions acted in love. If we want to walk righteously, we need to follow this example. We can't do that without first aligning our thoughts with the truth. That Romans verse I deleted says that zeal (a feeling) for God is not adequate for salvation, but rather a right understanding is needed.
So I guess I would go another step back: your actions are wrong because your feelings are wrong because your beliefs/thoughts are wrong. If you want to change this chain, go all the way back to beliefs/thoughts, not just back to the feelings. Or can you give me scripture on asking God to change how you feel? I think it is our job to take our thoughts captive, and feelings will follow. Just trying to repent of how you feel seems impossible. But I guess you are asking God to do what you can't? I think he has already equipped you with what you need: the truth of your eternal future and your identity. I don't think it is right to ask God for what he has already given.
Hey, I appreciate you telling me when I'm being offensive. I need that training. All alone, I tell myself an emphatic story and I am not used to considering how it affects others. My heart is soft, even if my words are sharp, and if you can bear with me, I am willing to be shaped.
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